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Perhaps the true test of political greatness is ...
in having the wisdom to leave as few living descendants as possible to embarass your "legacy".

If he hurries, maybe Benson can get Bush's face up there before the primary.

So it was old Ann? Figures they'd smut it up.
There will be spin, always. Our neoconfederate masters have a passing interest in "humanizing" Lincoln, after all...they know that his principles reflect ill on them. In fact, there's an excellent example of this twisting, this "smearing by trivia", going on at Sc right now, perpetuated by cwillar, here After all, isn't it essentially what the tame media do with their "Bush Won!!" headlines, when the actual story refutes it? I prefer to judge Twain, or Lincoln, or anybody else, on the end result, the net effect, of their lives.
You like timesinks? You'd like a log called Plep

Oh cookie. You just don't know what a godsend that tour has been. I have the hideous flu-- you know the kind where death would be a welcome diversion. I got lost in your tour and ti took some damnable time away from my own miserable self. If you have anymore of those kinds of things, this is one person that will greatly appreciate them. I will defer to you on this stuff with only the proviso that I will take what I see on the Discovery and History channels with the hugest grains of salt from now on. Pardon me now, I must go puke again but will come back and start the tour again. k

Direct link to the tour of the house, it's kind of hard to get to from the main tour, but there's tons
of different tours there. Give you an idea how not big prairie life was....this sure ain't Texas! The nasty carpet's in the sitting room [ps. Mary exaggerated, a lot I've seen that house with busloads of kids in it and there's no way 50-60 kids fit in it for a birthday party! You could barely shoehorn that many into the yard; plus, I was in on the archaeological excavation of the backyard privy before the restoration started, (so I'm not just remembering it bigger from when I was a kid), it was one really big hole and one very small one, and between that and the stable, there was barely a yard left at the time. No way, Mrs. L!]

Could you be thinking of Ann Rutledge?
'Cause that's certainly not a secret, but has always been under debate. Her house & family tavern are at New Salem Village...pictures in the first link I sent. I called Karen Graff, a Lincoln Librarian, and that's the only one she ever heard of, and she's pretty up to date on anything new, since she's in on the new material that's been turning up since the Presidential Library's ben under construction. Ann Rutledge was engaged to a friend of Lincoln's, and it was believed she intended to break it off, but she died. As the article I just posted said, he kinda sorta dated Owens for a bit (there was not exactly a surplus of unmarried women in NS) but he didn't turn her on. Anyway, check out the various "tours"; Karen helped put those pages together, and they're quite nice, even if they are kidsafe. They shot all the pictures to make things look bigger, except for Edwards Place; it really IS big. You could fit 15 homes the size of Abe & Mary's in it's footprint....hell, you could put Lincoln's home as it was before he added on to it for the children into the front parlor! It's quite a class gap. I've had guests "do" the old capitol building, the law offices AND the Tinsley building in less than a half hour. The Park Service restored the Lincoln home a few years back; they stripped down to the contemporary paint and wallpapers, and they'd found some samples of Mary Lincoln's own carpets, which were all duplicated at great care & expense. They were the height of fashion at the time, and boy, are they hideous! They show up beautifully (if that's the word...) on those photos...the red & green ones...insert pukies here. At any rate the whole place is quite pokey & cramped, especially since she was fairly stout and he was so very tall. Most of the Lincoln era homes remaining were much less claustrophobic.

One of the shows I saw visited the house of a woman Lincoln was "friendly" with. Rather this is all based upon speculation by various historians is always a problem. The fact that Lincoln may have been shy and a klutz around decent ladies wouldn't surprise me if he then sought out the company of women with loose morals. Many a man with a quiet backward demeanor to his usual acquaintances has often proved the old adage that "still waters run deep."

Shortly before DNA established a familial relationship with Sally Hemmings and the Jefferson family, I had just finished reading a biography on Jefferson in which the author offered reams of material on why Jefferson could not be related to to Hemmings and even futher that he did not have a dalliance with a society matron in France.

Don't know about the matron but the DNA was definitive. Sadly, the white descendents of Jefferson still will not accept the black or mixed race descendents into the Jefferson registry or to the annual activities celebrating his life. Somehow, I think Jefferson would have been sad about that as he was said to have cared deeply for Hemmings.

But for the DNA, that would still all be speculation.

Also, I can understand why the state that gave us Lincoln would want to preserve the pristine version of his life and I say more power to them.

It would not be the first time that one historian's "discoveries" is another historian"s "balderdash." Personally, don't argue either point but only related what I saw on TV. It will not be the first time that historians have clashed on what they believed something to be.

I purposely chose the book about Jefferson because I wanted a historian to tell me Jefferson did not sleep with Sally, (who was his wife's half sister and was raised with her btw, and said to look much like her).

Still, I didn't want to believe it. I didn't want to believe the great man took advantage of her. The DNA pretty much settled the question. I had thoroughly been 'suaded otherwise by the author that had taken pains to knock down all shreds of rumor that he had been with her. It was quite a shock but not the worst of news. At least he left her and her children their freedom and a bit of money to start a new life with.

Some of Sally Hemmings descendents are so white, they didn't even know of their own heritage until a genealogist found them, who was tracking down descendents in order to assist a group of Sally's people. They have been pushing for inclusion into the Jefferson's family registry. The registry has been split but the majority of adherents to remaining exclusive to white descendents has won so far. The lawsuits continue...

So, in many cases, sadly or interestingly, different historians and scholars, pore over the same documentation and come to altogether different conclusions. My only guess is, that many historians have an agenda when they start their research and of course hope to establish that what they suspected all along is in fact the truth.

I've simply become electic when viewing historical presentations anymore. One guy says one thing and one another and both swear by their postulations so there ya go. It is left to us to believe what we will or entertain that somebody is right, we just may never know who is...k

Some photos
As I said, I live very near the home, and have actually seen his household records, including payroll notations for the one or sometimes two hired girls they had here. There may have been other arrangements when he was prez. Mary was a bit of a climber, as her family had been planters in the south, but if there were any actual slaves, they were her parent's. Some of her relatives were confederates; in fact, Lincoln took in a cousin, I think, who'd been widowed for the confederacy, while they were in the WH, and the woman wasn't particularly grateful, as I recall. He was a lawyer for the budding railroads, but in fact a good bit of his practice was as a circuit rider; they lived well, but modestly by Springfieldian standards of the time. There were a lot of far more prosperous people in the area, including his law partner, and Mary's sister was married to Ninian Edwards, whose father had been the first Governor; so her family was quite prominent; they had their doubts about Abe, who'd worked his way up from day laborer to store clerk to postmaster of a tiny settlement, then eventually a small-town lawyer and circuit rider. There wasn't too much in the way of corporate work around here at the time; Illinois'd only been a state for thirty years at the time he was elected president. The Law Office is nice enough, but small; Lincoln and Herndon and one or two clerks; Herndon possibly had black servants, or the Edwards' might have, but not slaves, per se; Illinois was never a slave state, though some indentured servants might as well have been...Springfield wasn't much bigger than 10 blocks square at the time, though I can't recall the population right off the top of my head. I'd tend to doubt his experiences with prostitutes were very extensive, if at all, at least while he lived in Spfld, and I'm fairly confident they didn't persist after his marriage, but it only takes once to catch the clap, I guess. Folk around here were pretty much staggered by his eventual success, actually. He was a capable but not particularly ambitious man before he married, and was in fact considered more than a little socially inept, especially with the ladies, (almost a local joke). He was considered pretty straightlaced, even a bit prudish, in habit, if not in attitude, (he was unprepossesing and butt ugly, remember, with almost no money), and it was considered that he'd married far above his station, a view he shared, incidentally. You should check out Ken Burns' 2 part series ; I think it's called Abraham and Mary Lincoln and it came out just last year or so. I enjoy the hHistory Channel, too, but I think they use sex to get people to watch 'em....I'll call the historical library Mon.to see if they know what materials were used. Don't forget the groupies & gossip effect in regard to personal letters, or the tendency of tv to spice up history with speculation. Mary was a pusher..His eventual (relatively modest...legislators were rather more ill-paid in those days) success was mostly her doing, due to her family connections and her own pride and ambition. Lincoln was one of those introverted extroverts you found in the 19th century. When he was a circuit rider, he spent huge chunks of time reading in the saddle between towns, and socializing and passing the news and gossip when he'd arrived and business was concluded. He was no Bill Clinton, from what I've heard, but she was definitely a Hilary prototype! I haven't read the syphilis book, but did read some reviews about it...I think she may have been stretching on this one. On the other hand, the marfan's thing did sound much more plausible to me. We're pretty steeped in Lincolniana here; letters that "turn up" tend to get front page attention, and I don't think there can be too much fire there, since there's been little or no smoke. In fact, there was something on History channel just last evening about sexual mores during the civil war, but I just can't see Abe as much of a rake; Far more likely that the neighbors were gossiping because Mary got up their noses. She spent every nickle he ever made and quite a bit more. She got really insufferable after his death, but even when she was younger, she was much more well-liked by men than by women...typical southern belle, social climber (or re-climber, if you like), far more "social" than he was. In fact, the thing a few of the older historians whisper about is the rumor that their oldest son, Robert Todd might not have been Lincoln's. Unlike the younger children, Lincoln never seemed particularly attatched to Robert, and there was an early and permanent estrangement. Ah, well. What with a war on and all, plenty of folk had bad things to say about 'em, I'm sure. Just wouldn't imagine, what with all the neoconfederate revisionism around, that it's all all that believeable, but lie I said, there're plenty of experts I can ask, including my old history profs. And so I shall.

Documentaries on The Discovery Channel and the History Channel are my sources.

Via extensive research through Lincoln's mail, some fairly recently recovered from the descendents of one of Lincoln's paramours and from the mail of people who knew the Lincolns.

Also, Lincoln, as it turns out was a rather well paid corporate lawyer at one point with a rather nice income and well-heeled office for its day. Well-heeled folks did have at least a modicum of slaves simply to run their household so they could entertain.

Some Northern slaveholders fancied themselves as paternal caretakers of their own slaves and it has been said they had a far better life than their Southern counterparts. This is also an era in which women were treated much the same way. Many were educated such as Jefferson’s slaves, some of whom he taught to play classical violin. Jefferson, it has been established was related to his slaves genetically at least through his sister as it is not accurate or possible to trace back through male lineage as it is female.

But what does it matter? The good news is that all evidence points to the fact the he did indeed write the Gettysburg address which apparently many thought he had a ghost writer. Seems the man was gifted with the written word as his many letters attested to that fact.

Lincoln in fact, did not just cheat on his wife, he was a regular visitor to local prostitutes before marriage but that was simply not unusual for single men (and some married men) of his day. Btw, The Discovery Channel could have made all that stuff up I s'pose, but I don't know why. I was dismayed to find out recently that one Discovery Channel has been re-named The Discovery Times Channel, as in New York Times. Nothing’s sacred anymore from the megalomaniac media.

Lincoln has often be speculated to suffer from Marfan’s syndrome or Acromegaly. Either disease gives the individual extremely long bones and lengthened features. Both diseases create havoc with one’s organs and can lead to sudden death at an early age. Some do live out fairly natural life spans. More so now with treatment.

I have not heard if tests now available have established if Lincoln actually had either one of those diseases.

You could write to The Discovery Channel or check their web pages. Also, I have these kinds of channels running in the background constantly as the noise of the TV is just comforting as I live alone. It is quite possible I have melted down more than one documentary on Lincoln into one but that is where I came up with my factoids. Those kind of things are always up for grabs and for every expert who determines a fact, another can be found to dispute it so best bet is to take it all with a few grains of salt.

Bottom line, history is not an exact science. Far from it. I was devastated when Sy Hersch reported that JFK was essentially a whore dog while president. He has contemporaneous evidence from too many household staff and even reporters of that era for even me to deny it. Reporters knew of his dalliances but did not report on them. Helen Thomas no less agreed that even though some stories are exaggerated, it was well known by the press that Kennedy had many women in the White House for personal pleasure.

Same with FDR though he was apparently less into quantity than quality. Hell his press didn’t even report he was crippled.

But of course, this does not diminish these men in my eyes. They did far more good in public life than the so-called “sins” they committed in their personal lives.

We sure cannot say that about the supposedly monogamous George W. Bush…

Huh. Looks like the assholes have always controlled the media.

Just out of curiosity, you have a link or reference for those comments on Lincoln? He's a hometown guy, (I live two blocks from his home, and I know a lot of Lincoln scholars; in fact we got 'em hangin' from every tree since they started building his Presidential Library a couple years ago!)and he and his wife never owned any slaves, though some of her southern relatives did. Also, the thing about cheating on her is considered highly speculative; as far as I know it's based on the notion, promulgated by one writer, that his symptoms were possibly consistent with syphilis (though if so, the Mrs. was symptomatic long before he was, and I think the Marfack (sp?) syndrome possibility's more likely there). In fact, it's probable that he had never even met a black person before he went to Washington. It's been stated that he'd never "made the aquaintance of a person of color" until his wife started taking refugee former slaves in at the WH; there just weren't any to speak of here (this was a wilderness, still!) until after the war. It was at this time that his views on the subject firmed up...it wasn't a big issue for him until then. Oddly, despite all the nastiness written about poor old Mary, she was the one with the abolitionist views, according to her relatives.

Mr. Morrison is still a riveting story. I didn't know his wife and daughters had visited Vietnam in 1999. I must have had my head into something else. It should have been on the Internet and I had been on for about ten years.

Vaguely, I remember the stamp. I'm sure there was some struggle with that.

During the Vietnam War years, I was working in Calif state mental hospitals and we had several conscientious objectors come to work for us. Of course, they were not a problem. They were often gentle with the patients and were definitely not given to making radical noises about being anti-war.

We had Mennonites, Quakers-- usually people connected with a particular with religion (with pacifist roots) before the war started. The military did not look easily upon Baptists or Methodists who suddenly switched to Quakerism when their draft number came up.

They actually fit well into the state hospital community. We were more cloistered and way out in the rural areas of Calif during that time. We knew how it felt to be looked upon as oddities. There were occasional rumors and false stories that we did weird things to the patients there.

This thing with Mr. Morrison happened the first year I worked in my first state hospital. The following year, Reagan was elected governor and my focus was swallowed up with loathing for Reagan and his tax cutting of people services and so I don’t remember a follow-up of what happened to my new c.o. friends. As we were variously laid off or transferred to other facilities, I lost track of them.

I barely remember talking about Norman. We weren’t exactly like an office klatch or a factory floor. We were steeped in the lives of our patients and their daily struggles. Vietnam just didn’t come up that much as we didn’t have time. Even though the c.o.’s were made to work with us, (and in other dreaded settings), they blended in with the rest of us. We were glad to have them and I think they found acceptance there they wouldn’t have found in some other work places.

I wondered later if Norman’s soul (if there are such things) ever came to peace with Vietnam. If it did, it must have been frightfully awakened with the advent of a more warmongering government than America has ever had. All at once, I think I understand what he did and why he did it far better than ever before… k :-(

Norman Morrison.

Dear cookie, your Ashcroft is acting up. Sometimes he's here and sometimes he isn't. Wish you'd come to DS if not SC. We have fools too but I don't think we have had a single fight there yet... unless I missed something. My odometer at SC just hit 8,000 and I don't even care. I feel like an old rusty car there with 100,000 miles on me. Please take care. Sure miss you. k

I don't know when the last full moon was/is but yesterday and last evening was one of the most all purpose weirdest days at SC I have spent. I mean it was across the board nutsy cookoo. To top it off, I fooled with the settings at DS and had everybody locked out of the secret archives. Thank goodness DCal spoke up and one other person or I would've thought it was that one person being goofy. I found my mistake and fixed it. Sheez, I need to leave stuff alone. k

Hoping you had/having a nice visit. Nothing much new on other fronts. Status about quo. ;-)

Mpf. I gave up on camping when the clammy thick fog rolled in, and camped at a friend's house instead. I know they aren't typical, but I get equally frustrated with the bland acceptance of the unwashed out in the streets, too, and I resent having my refuge and my nest fouled. Ah, well. Take some time for neglected friends, I guess.

Now cookie, unless BoardNanny has lost her long-term memory, we had a "Where's Bethesda?" thread a year ago AND somebody brought that up recently to needle whiterose. The cookie thread is still open, btw. Whiterose in embedded in psychological concrete where nothing is going to get through.

Also, cooks, remember, SC attracted far leftwingers long ago and Smirky let them proliferate. vv knew that. He knows it's going to be like that every time he comes on and frankly I think he plays with those people. He was into psychological warfare and he has Marine self-discipline up the ass. Even if they were to best him intellectually, he always outlasts anyone who even tries to beat him on the long haul. He can take care of himself.

This guy has seen death including glimpses of his own and he has had to kill. 99.99% of the butts who go after him will never understand why or how people come to do that nor will they ever believe that a person can still be sane and have done those things. They don't understand the warrior mentality that has given us the country that we have today that we can disagree in.

My only "contention" with vv is, why bother? I think I know and it is because it keeps his mind sharp (for one thing-- there are others). But he goes away for long periods too. That tells me he gets his fill and goes. But he chooses his battles when he makes the kind of announcements he makes. He knows, cookie, it will attract those kind of people (the peaceniks, of which I am one but believe some wars are unfortunately necessary) --vv knows what he is doing, he can handle it, I don't feel sorry for him and I don't pity him.

He has many things I admire. I feel some symbiosis with him because of my dad but he is a big boy and if he wants to fight with a bunch of rigid, tightass, psychoneurotic butt pimples, that's his choice. Most people won't bother to go in those threads. They are predictable. They are no-win situations for most everybody that ends up embroiled in them.

Oh, wait. There may be one thing I would feel sad for vv if it's true and I don't know, I haven't checked. I would feel sad if there is absolutely no other website that he could go to on the entire Internet where a guy who happens to be a proud Marine and also a proud liberal could find a message board. There may not be such places. I don't know. I haven't looked. It is one way to stay healthy by finding people you can mix with that are more like you.

Except for here and the other small board I have, these are the only two places I go on the Internet without needing to have my guard up. I know you gave vv this url one time as he posted here once but never came back. Maybe he reads and doesn't post here. That's his choice. So, if he reads this, that's fine.

He said something about working on Boxer's campaign. She is lucky to have him and that will be a good outlet for him. I have to work in politics offline or I would fall into the trap I was in at one time thinking SC actually represented the left. Thank gawd they do not. Not even close.

Real Dems don't won't the looney left screwing up our party. Not all people at SC are looney, of course not. But a great number have camped out there because they have nowhere else to go-- not with that big of an audience, even a hostile audience. They push the envelope and they don't get tossed so they stay.

Like it or not, the looney left is so tiny a majority in this country it will not count for anything unless they get off their high horse and join a mainstream movement and fight from within. Otherwise, the Dem infrastructure is saying, please, let them join the Greens. We have other pools from which to choose from. Our enemy is apathy. We lose far more numbers to apathy than to the Greens. k

PS: Have a good trip if you go and play music, LOUDLY.

I'll resist the temptation....cold turkey's always easier. Far as I know, Cal's in Keokuk, with the ex-in-laws (I have a sneaking suspicion that they like him best...they sure seemed to side with him in the divorce!) The ex & new hubby are planning either a semester or summer session in Barcelona (?) or is it Portugal, and they're working out the childcare. Miss Daisy's not really old enough to appreciate time abroad, and Master Hal seems disinclined to go without her (I love it that little kids are so loyal to each other). I may drive up as far as Sand Ridge and meet him on the way back, if the rain stops (and ain't it amusing that as soon as I said "camping" out loud that starts?) before it gets all boggy and cold. If Intel started a thread about me, though, somebody should warn her that Nanny doesn't like that. How's vv holding out? I just can't believe how quickly they all piled on vv....even the new guys, which just validated my suspicion that the new guys're the same as the old guys. As Smirky would say, if he were paying attention, "Feh!"

"cookie come back"
Oh look, Intel started a cookie thread. Maybe DCal will let you take a peek at it...k

from Moose & Squirrel.com

Dori's having a bit of a relapse on her flu it sounds like. Forgot to ask her what the weather was like up there. I don't know how y'all get through those cold winters. When it drops to fifty degrees here every joint in my body aches-- even with pain meds. I've been stuck in warm climates all my life and planned to move to the snow line. I guess I'll croak here at the rate I'm going. (Of is that not going?) k

Another place to send people who ask....

You're awfully quiet, Dori...everything ok?

Big winner, Asscrack.

Odd, that. Shirley Jackson was one of Mom's favorites...had all her non-fiction, too. Some of the earliest "adult books" I ever read, even though there were pirates. In fact, some of my friends and I still use catchphrases from Life Among the Savages as code for the stuff our kids got up to...

Well, I see them now but since I had them mixed up that truly blows me away. I have been deluding myself all these years that Flannery O'Connor wrote The Lottery but wasn't sure about the other at all.

But what do I know? I was sure wr wasn't B but now I am convinced she is... Sheez, some "proof" is irrefutable.

I stand convicted of screwed up memory and gossiping. Guess I'll shuffle on down to gitmo.

Say, is gitmo still in bidness? k

Found 'em both online! Ain't the innernet sumthin'?

Thanks for reminding me.

Just because I'm feeling rude.

Thank the heavens I am past the age where I might be tempted to put red, white and blue up my vital organ...
(I secretly admit however that the thought of those tires on my red vehicle would be absolutely fabulous. But don't worry, I won't. --Loved the revelation it was all in fun! Gawd, I'm an easy mark for you cooks.:-))

AAARGGGGHHHH.

Thanks for the toy! I had a few of those and either wore them out or took them apart to see how they worked. But this one is bookmarked and will last.

I loved the McGovern piece. Oh woe, that he is not even 20 years younger. He's the best of the best.

Just got back from grocery shopping. Kids, if I'm ever in your neighborhood, don't send me to the store with your money. I had budgeted $130 for today's trip and spent $200. I can't be trusted. I broke two rules. I didn't take a list and I shopped on an empty stomach. Oh well, I hate the electric company. I just won't pay them. Hah! Like a jerk, I already did. I ain't never gonna save up for a new riding mower at this rate. :-) k

A new toy.

A really good one.

Mind's a terrible thing n' all that....

The Legend of Smiley Land

That's a great story anyway so I sent it just to my friend Mitch in Houston, He loved it. He's as ignorant as I am but too smart for me to have ever lured him into SC. He actually believes there are other things in life besides politics. Can you believe that?? I love him anyway. k

Nah, it's a note from a cousin (Mom's age) on the military side of the family. She'd gotten it, and wanted to know if my Mom'd ever told it to me...apparently, it was one of their favorite jokes back in WW2, and when they told it to their old folks, the old folks told them that they'd been telling it back in the first WW, too. (It was kind of a pertinent postscript to a huge discussion/brawl at a recent family reunion about urban legends, wherein my most highly educated (but totally stiff) Aunt was taken in by a variant of the "Mexican Chihuahua" story.)

That's terrific! Do you have a link so we can hang it on SC? Thanks, k

An American soldier in a hospital explained how he was wounded: He said, "I was told that the way to tell a hostile Iraqi from a friendly Iraqi was to shout 'To hell with Saddam Hussein!' If he shoots, he's unfriendly. So I saw this Iraqi dude and yelled 'To hell with Saddam Hussein!' and he yelled back, 'To hell with George Bush!' We were shaking hands when a malfunctioning missile hit us."
-- retold by Enemy Combatant

You look... fine.

I feel kinda weird...

Warning from an SC thread – Watch for disinformation
“Notice that there is now an al-Jazeera impostor called al-Jazeerah (with an ‘h’).and that stories from the fake site are showing up on the Smirking Chimp with great frequency.” k

Some people lead a rich fantasy life!

cookie, get well soon. You will feel better! (Got a card with that on it once. It stuck.)

dori

cookie! We need you. Please get well so you can take care of our hearts with your special webpages again. >Sniff.< kar:-(

"But I did see Graham at...
...a cocktail party at Katherine Graham's, and he didn't look all that comfortable, or part of the whole insider Washington scramble that has brought about this war."

Quote from post 15, whitenose. Is she an insider? Gawd help us all. Especially since Katherine Graham is dead. :-)

Good heavens, you people are posting pictures now? I am doing worse than standing still--I am getting lost in the dust!

I am going over to DS, and then HAVE to dig out magazines for recycling while it is still possible to recycle. I don't know what is happening in your area, but places are cutting out their recycling programs around here because funds are so scarce it is less costly to put everything into landfills than to make new products out of them. Just one disgusting thing after another!

Yes, if I were to read the HTML information I copied I would probably learn how to post images too, but so far it is just kind of sitting here, occasionally winking at me.

Just stopped by to say 'Hi'.

dori

HahahahaHAHAHAhaha!! I always thought there was something there... :-)

A small story.

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