Okay, fine, we will do away with the chinese thing. It was just an example ANYWAY.

And I see you are using the bible example I gave yesterday on the phone to prove my point.. AGAINST ME!

Well, did you not hear what my brother said! The Ten Commandments is made such that almost everything we do can actually be made into a sin. The Ten Commandments do not specifically name that envy is a sin. If you want to say that envy is a sin, so will jealousy, do you understand! God made the Ten Commandments impossible to follow so that we would need Jesus.

BUT LET'S NOT GET RELIGIOUS. (There is a reason why i did not bring in religion in the end although I mentioned it over the phone karina. Because this is not meant to be a debate that would bring in religion. If we were to get religious, I rather we stop! Remember how our arguments over religion always made both of us unhappy and how you would end with “I’m going to ask my catholic teacher this Sunday” with a sulk!)

Besides, if you want to say that covet means envy, well, covet can also mean jealousy! Because covet is to want what someone has! And both the definitions of jealousy and envy contain that! (And I think you might just argue with me over this paragraph)

And you cannot bring in the point about God being a jealous God. If you check the definition, jealous in this case is suppose to mean demanding total loyalty, what is it got to do with the definition of envy!

Jealousy is human nature if you use the definition of being jealous when something in our possession is being threatened.

That is the catch. The thing must be in your possession. But that is the other definitions of jealousy that is NOT related to the definition of envy because we are working on the definition where the thing that we want is actually NOT in our possession! ( As I've already mentioned in the previous entry! You cannot use the other definitions simple because it is not related!)

Therefore, both envy and jealousy wants something THAT DOES NOT ALREADY BELONG TO YOU, except jealousy also comprises of anger aroused from discontentment at not being able to have that thing you want whereas envy is discontentment BUT not anger! When you have both, it is no longer just envy but jealousy! And what makes a person worse than having just discontentment but having BOTH discontentment AND anger?

And jealousy stems from wanting something too doesn’t it? Does excessive wants even exist when wanting something is already being excessive because you want it, not need it? (Man.. this could spark off another argument because we could have very different definitions of excessive but I’m still going to say it!)

AGAIN, THE DEFINITIONS. (gosh.. I'm getting tired of repeating myself!) You can say "it is only natural and humanly acceptable that one should feel the need to guard one's possessions" ONLY when referring to that very definition where the thing actually already "belongs" to the person feeling jealous.

You are right! Jealousy and envy can arise from different circumstances. You can just be envious of someone without having to have all that angry feelings, or you can simply be jealous straight away (which means having all that angry feelings :D). The fact that jealousy can arise from envy is because you can start with envying someone by wishing that you could have what the other person has, perhaps even feeling discontentment(since you want to insist that envy also comprises of discontent). AND jealousy arises from it when it is no longer just simply envying someone but also feeling anger PLUS discontentment! Therefore, envy is not THE ROOT of jealousy but that jealousy CAN arise from envy simply because of the reason stated above!

AND PLEASE NOTE. I'm not the one saying that envy doesn't comprise of discontent. THE DICTIONARIES SAID SO. (as “ERMM.....” as my sentence sounds, it is true! I know you don't want to deal with the definitions and the technical stuff, BUT YOU HAVE TO IN THIS CASE because it is not possible to have this argument based on our very own definitions!)

I am totally repeating myself!

This. Can really go on forever karina!!

P.S. Okay, it is good (for you) because you feel that it makes you learn/practice your html (although I think that is unnecessary trouble because you can use blogger and not have to worry about putting a < br > here and there!). However, when I say pitas sucks, I am not only referring to how it is such a hassle just posting an entry but also the how frustrating it was when I tried to sign in because they do not bother warning you that you had typed the wrong password in!

Let me list the definitions of envy and jealousy I’ve got from several sources.

CAMBRIDGE

Envy

verb [T]
to wish that you had something that another person has:
I envy her ability to talk to people she's never met before.
[+ two objects] I don't envy you the job of cooking for all those people.
noun [U]
the feeling that you wish you had something that someone else has:
I watched with envy as she set off for the airport.

Jealous

adjective
unhappy and angry because someone has something or someone you want, or because you think they might take something or someone that you love away from you:
He had always been very jealous of his brother's good looks.
Anna says she feels jealous every time another woman looks at her boyfriend.

Jealousy
noun [C or U]
a feeling of unhappiness and anger because someone has something or someone that you want:
He broke his brother's new bike in a fit of jealousy.
She was consumed by/eaten up with jealousy (= She was very jealous) when she heard that he had been given a promotion.
The team has performed very badly this season due to petty jealousies (= feelings of jealousy about unimportant things) among the players.

DICTIONARY.COM

Envy

A feeling of discontent and resentment aroused by and in conjunction with desire for the possessions or qualities of another.

The object of such feeling: Their new pool made them the envy of their neighbors.

Obsolete. Malevolence.

Jealous

1. Fearful or wary of being supplanted; apprehensive of losing affection or position.

2. a. Resentful or bitter in rivalry; envious: jealous of the success of others.

b. Inclined to suspect rivalry.

3. Having to do with or arising from feelings of envy, apprehension, or bitterness: jealous thoughts.

4. Vigilant in guarding something: We are jealous of our good name.

5. Intolerant of disloyalty or infidelity; autocratic: a jealous God.

LONGMAN DICTIONARY

Envy

-To wish that you had someone else’s possessions, abilities, etc.

Jealous

-Feeling angry and unhappy because someone has something that you like

-Feeling angry and unhappy because the person you love is showing interest in another person or somebody is showing interest in them

-Wanting to keep or protect something that you are proud of

WEBSTER DICTIONARY

Envy

1 : painful or resentful awareness of an advantage enjoyed by another joined with a desire to possess the same advantage
2 obsolete : malice
3 : an object of envious notice or feeling envy of his friends>

Jealous

1 a : intolerant of rivalry or unfaithfulness b : disposed to suspect rivalry or unfaithfulness
2 : hostile toward a rival or one believed to enjoy an advantage
3 : vigilant in guarding a possession jealous of their new independence -- Scott Buchanan>

That was one whole lot to take but you can see one similarity, and that envy is based on one main definition whereas jealousy is based on many DIFFERENT definitions. And to compare these two words, it is only fair to take that one definition based on one thing that I’ve bold in all of the definitions above : to want something that someone else has.

With this, your second and fourth paragraph, and the second line in your fifth paragraph is unrelated because they are based on the definitions that are not related to the definition of envy.

Your take is that envy is more vicious, immoral and malevolent than jealousy. But as you can see above, the definition that envy is malevolence or malice is an obsolete definition, and I’m sure you know what the meaning of obsolete is. Therefore, although envy may have been derived from the latin word that has one of its two meanings being “to see with malice”, this definition of envy is no longer applicable. And we are looking at what envy and jealousy is defined as at this moment, it doesn’t matter if envy USED TO mean malice, because it doesn’t anymore.

It is clear to see in all the definitions that the words used to describe jealousy contains stronger feelings than envy. For example, in the cambridge AND longman definition, envy is simply to wish that you have something that another has, hence indicating that you don’t necessarily have to feel angry to be envious of someone. On the other hand, jealousy in both these definitions means a feeling of unhappiness and anger because someone has something or someone that you want. Hence an indication that you not only want what someone has but you feel unhappiness and anger about not having it. With this, how can you say that envy is worse than jealousy when jealousy ACTUALLY means that you are unhappy or feel anger because you want what someone has while envy is just wanting what someone has? (I know I’m repeating myself but I want to get my point across! SEE THE POINT KARINA)

So although I would assume these two dictionaries are more substantial than the online dictionary.com, you might want to rebutt me and say that in dictionary.com, envy is actually a feeling of discontent and resentment aroused by and in conjunction with desire for the possessions or qualities of another.

But read on and you will notice that jealousy is to be resentful or bitter and it actually arises FROM feelings of ENVY, apprehension, or BITTERNESS.

Now tell me, is discontent worse or is bitterness worse when discontent is just to want something better while bitterness is to exhibit strong animosity and to find it difficult or distasteful to accept, admit, or bear something.

And the fact that jealousy actually can arise from feelings of envy? It’s again emphasises the point that envy is wanting what someone else wants and when jealousy ARISES from it, its wanting what someone else wants AND feeling discontent about it!

Just look at the words used and you can see how much stronger the words used to describe jealousy is. Jealousy is a much stronger feeling than envy because it contains more hatred, more discontent. And in this way, how can you say that envy is worse when it is mellower?